- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
After using LineageOS for long time, I have finally moved to GrapheneOS. I use a lot of banking and financial apps which I never felt comfortable using on LineageOS due to lack of proper sandboxing, unlocked bootloader etc.
GrapheneOS works flawlessly just like Android. You don’t even notice there’s hardening underneath. Also it protects from Google’s evil location tracking using WiFi/Bluetooth or even when the Location is turned off. I don’t understand how people in general are comfortable with Google tracking all the time. You can use Google Play and Play Services in a sandbox that works just like regular installation, but without deep tracking.
If you haven’t tried GrapheneOS, try it. You won’t go back to regular Android.
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If they can get it to work on non-Google devices, I will consider it. Right now Graphene compatibility is extremely limited. I basically have to give Google money to avoid Google.
🤪
Like Google will bankrupt without my money. I’d rather remove their malware.
Have people forgotten about the used market? Buying things second hand is the way.
Doesn’t change that this only runs on Pixel devices. I simply don’t want a Pixel device for various reasons. Used or not, Graphene won’t run officially on a Sony, a Fairphone, etc.
If the security benefits of a pixel is less important then the fact Google made it then GOS is simply not meant for you.
Its silly people complain about it being only compatible for pixels but never seem to blame other android brands for making significantly less secure phones. The responsibility should be put on phone makers to create secure phones that meet GOS requirements, not to expect GOS to make a less secure OS.
The whole AOSP environment is very Google centric so its pretty weird to think because your not buying a pixel that you are somehow avoiding Google.
I have more considerations than security, like a headphone jack and other details. But you have my upvote anyways, because you make a lot of sense. I agree with you. 🏅
That’s fair, and the reasons why someone buys a phone is a personal choice.
I would suggest with things like a headphone jack that, while its annoying to buy an adapter (usb-c to headphone) it may be worth the cost vs sacrificing something like hardware security.
Sadly a lot of the time consumers are forced to choose between security and privacy or convenience.
I do agree that the lack of a headphone jack absolutely kills me. It’s a reason I haven’t pulled the trigger either way on a new phone yet. On the one hand, I want a secure degoogled phone that maintains a lot of functionality with GOS. On the other, I want a modern phone with a headphone jack a la Sony. I go back and forth constantly.
For what its worth, my Sony Xperia 1 VI didn’t come with a lot of google apps and it was easy enough to get rid of those. Obviously play services and some other stuff remain, so it’s not a degoogled phone, but it’s alright. Sony asks for some analytics stuff, but that’s all very easy to deny.
Sony also makes it very easy to root, unlock and flash your phone, with an official guide on how to do that. It’s not as easy as installing graphene OS, but I’m sure somebody will built lineage or something for it at some point
Edit: Here are links to the official documentation, Sony makes it pretty easy to built and flash AOSP
This is great info, thank you so much! That definitely gives me more things to consider
My country’s second hand market sucks donkey balls. Import fees are crazy if you even dare to use Amazon instead of cheap Chinese shop. I just wanna scream.
Damn, that really sucks, I’m sorry :(
still pricey as fuck in my country. barely any pixels here.
I’m always wary of buying second hand phones. How healthy is that battery going to be?
It is possible to replace them, with a little research. Or just taking them to a phone repair shop if you’re too anxious for that
Yeah, it’s kind of wild and ironic that one of the most private OSes requires a Google phone.
Not only that but it relies on the Pixel’s black box “Titan” security chip, that google pinky-promised to open source but never did…
The Titan security chip is not a black box. The Titan M1 gas been scrutinazed by blackhat: https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3503921.3503922
Just because something is not open source does not mean you can’t verify it (no, i’m not shilling closed slurce; no i don’t think closed > open; no i don’t think closed source is more secure)
‘Just reverse engineering it bro’
That work was not available when GrapheneOS was developed, and is not necessarily applicable to devices released after those findings… I still consider it a black box.
That work was not available when GrapheneOS was developed
What do you mean ? This has nothing to do with GrapheneOS in the first place (which by the way has been created in 2014. The article i linked refers to 2021).
I still consider it a black box.
Reverse engineering is a thing. It always has been. If every piece of closed source was a blackbox how can you explain exploitation ? How can bad actors exploit Windows, MacOS, CPU firmware and so on ? Your argument here is not practical. Also, why should Google put a backdoor inside a chip ? They already get every information they what directly from the people agreeing to use their software. So, why bother ? Moreover, every phone on the market has closed source firmware.
Buy a Pixel second hand. Then you’re just reimbursing someone who already made that mistake. ;)
Just research ahead and don’t buy one with a known hardware defect such as the 5As which are notorious for frying motherboards and screens. Went through 5 of them with the extended warranty over my phones life and they all died while in my hand abruptly. Less than a year or life per device almost always failing around 8 months for me.
If grapheneOS wasn’t so damn good I would’ve left pixels after that, Pixel XL abruptly died, 2XL had both cameras and the fingerprint sensor die out of nowhere, then the 4 5As. On an 8a right now and love it so fingers crossed it lasts!
If they had a user repairable device that ran it I’d buy it in a heartbeat
YES :D
I’ve been running it a couple of months now. All my banking apps work but 1 and I use one of my other phones for that.
Woot! Welcome to the club! Fuck Google!
@PullPantsUnsworn
I’m honestly only afraid of bricking my primary phone. That’s the only reason I’m still on stock android. It’s the inconvenience of having to buy my way out of a brick.GrapheneOS is the easy to install OS among any mobile platform. Everything is through a web UI, so you are very unlikely to brick your phone. You don’t need to type a single command. Also even if you brick a Pixel phone, it’s very easy to install stock Android build through Google with a similar installation process.
@PullPantsUnsworn
Ah but I’m running a Fairphone 4, so I’m not sure how a restore would work. Although I know I won’t void the warranty by changing the OS. Maybe I’ll see what their policy is on repairing a buggered attempt at the OS change. They provide /e/os from the shop like.Ah well then you can’t have GrapheneOS anyway
iodéOS is available on the Fairphone 4 and also has a very easy installation process. You just plug your phone in via USB, download the installer and follow the on-screen instructions.
@Ilandar
How is it for sandboxing banking apps? That’s my biggest worry about switching phone OS is losing access to my banking apps. I get I can use the browser, but sure we all know mobile browsing is made purposefully shit to drive up app installs anyway.
@swamptin @PullPantsUnsworn I’ve been using /e/os for a few months and like it. Good integration with Nextcloud.
@futureidentity
That’s cool! Any experience with banking apps? I expect to have to sandbox at least one, but Revolut might even have a native build?Edit: Forums indicate Revolut hasn’t worked naively since 2021
@PullPantsUnsworn
For people looking to change and are worried about banks bullshit here is a link to a list of currently supported bank apps.
Really helpful, thanks. Just curios, does this list apply also for LineageOS + MicroG ?
I couldn’t tell you. The page / list was made for graphene and I don’t know the technical differences between running that and lineage + micro g so not sure if the same list could apply. Sorry.
Literal gold
This is stupid helpful, thank you. I wouldn’t have thought to look this up on my own but now that I know it I’m a good bit more likely to try Graphene on my next phone. This is way more apps than I would have guessed.
My bank apps all work fine. Just keep your physical bank cards on you because Google Wallet won’t work with credit cards, NFC or transport passes. Your gig tickets and membership cards will load fine though.
You probably don’t want Google rummaging through your purchase history anyway. I certainly don’t miss it.
I personally have to toggle on Exploit protection compatibility mode in App info to get some of my banking apps to work
I don’t mind giving graphene a try but I’ll be honest, I have the following issues:
- Need to buy a pixel phone for this.
- I use a memory card so pixel phones might not be an option.
- fear of bricking a phone that I just got.
Why not buy a used one? I plan on picking one up from ebay or something.
I can but the issue is that I won’t be using it. My current phone will be better than a used phone bought.
It’s impossible to brick a Pixel while flashing GrapheneOS, thanks to their super easy to use Web-based installer, and Google’s great support for alternative operating systems, which also makes the installation process easier and safer.
If you mess anything up, you can always restart from the beginning and get it fixed. You can’t break a Pixel during flashing.
Great!
I go back to regular degoogled Android btw. Not a fan of the new pixel design. May come back later
I wish there was a way to keep Grapheneos installed and locked down without root, but with a way to adjust screen color. The only way I can tolerate pixel screen color reproduction is to root it and use an app to adjust it.
There’s also CalyxOS if you don’t want to run anything Google on your phone at all, but still have functional apps and such.
I mean, Graphene does that too, by default. It just has the app store available to be installed in their apps updater. If you don’t go there to install it by yourself, it’s a Google-less device by default.
Functional apps is the important bit, use of microG allows apps to provide push messaging etc without knowing Google services aren’t installed. There’s still some communication with Google as a result, but it’s fully sanitized.
I invite you to try installing common apps like Strava or Pokemon go without any Google services at all.
I was under the impression you could use microG instead of google services as well if you installed it manually?
I haven’t run graphene, so I can’t speak for it. But on any other android variant, microG is a system-app, so that it can spoof Google’s services properly. That means patching the system.
I believe the google framework is installed with less privilege than a system application
It’s anti-libre software.
Graphene uses the same sandboxing as AOSP. If you are talking about Google services framework then that makes a little sense but by itself the apps are about the same in terms of security.
Uh, u sure?
Yes
People contemplating moving to graphene, do be aware that banking etc. absolutely can be a major PITA on graphene as well. Several official apps used where i live cannot work in graphene, even with sandboxed play services installed, making day-to-day life functionally impossible with graphene. Luckily reverting to stock android is easy, although I probably wouldn’t have bought a pixel phone if I was planning on using stock OS.
Isn’t it only Google Wallet that doesn’t work? I actually cancelled a bank account I had because their app only worked with Google Wallet. Some banks roll their own NFC payment thing.
I’m on CalyxOS btw, not Graphene.
Some banking apps won’t run without SafetyNet (technically now Play Integrity). Pure AOSP doesn’t have it, and AOSP distributions with sandboxed play services or whatever usually fail the hardware attestation requirements. There are some other reasons banking apps won’t work, but a lot of it is similar stuff.
No that doesn’t work either, but we use a 2FA app to enable mobile banking access, SS access, school communications/message board etc., basically anything that requires you to prove your identity. That app doesn’t work in graphene at all, it flat out refuses and states the OS isn’t secure or the app isn’t installed from a valid source, so all things dependant on this doesn’t work on graphene.
Ah interesting. All my 2FA things work on CalyxOS. But maybe that app is the problem
“Making day to day life functionally impossible” is a bit drastic. I think that depends on each individual person, their needs both in terms of banking and privacy.
My banking app doesn’t work on Graphene but I also couldn’t care less. I can just as easily log in to my account via my browser on my phone if I need to do something and it isn’t exactly hard, it takes all of 30 seconds more than using an app.
I realise in some other countries you don’t have that option but were I in the same situation for me that would be enough to change banks, I don’t want to be forced to use an app for anything.
Everyone has different lengths they are willing to go to to protect their privacy and I’m willing to make my life slightly harder where as others may not but I think saying it makes life functionally impossible is a bit of an overstatement and it needs to be judged based on individual needs.
There is a list of what banking apps work and what don’t.I’ll post it in a top level comment for visibility.
The thing is, I’d need the government 2FA app (which doesn’t work in graphene) when logging in to my bank on a browser as well, so that doesn’t change anything.
And I can’t do anything, I can’t check my digital mailbox (not email, we have something specifically for official communication with bank, government etc.), I can’t log in to check messages from my kids school, I can’t order a doctors appointment…you get the picture.
Sounds like more of a problem with your government than GrapheneOS.
it’s a problem because graphene os doesn’t pass google play safety check, or whatever it is called. They are apparently not able to make the sandboxes play services good enough to pass so the app accepts it’s validity.
It’s actually a problem with Google, because the only reason GrapheneOS doesn’t pass the Play Integrity API check is that Google enforces a whitelist of allowed operating systems. Even though GrapheneOS is 10x as secure as the stock OS, Google doesn’t allow it. Since this is a highly monopolistic practice, the GrapheneOS team is talking to regulators to finally stop this: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/112916691727814901
Yeah i understand what you are saying and that is why everyone’s individual needs come into play.
I don’t know what country you are in and that can obviously affect things, my banks 2FA is an SMS. I have options in terms of the other things you mentioned, where as you may not have.
Well, I never really missed being able to pay via NFC on a phone, but I also never done it. My NFC chip in my card works fine.
When my baking app started detecting my rooted phone, I just switched to using their web-app via Firefox, which allows you to create a direct link to it as an “App”. Which is probably better anyway, than installing random proprietary apps on a phone. And logging into it every time is also easy with a password manager.
So I guess, as long as the banks still offer a website, I am good.
Banking compatability by country. In my experience even banking apps not mentioned also work. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/
My next phone is definitely going to be a Pixel for this reason. But my current one is not even 6 years old so I’ll wait a bit.
GraphmemeOS
I just looked it up and GrapheneOS only works on google hardware? So you had to give google some money first or did you get it to work on something else?
Yeah the fact that Pixel Phones are the defacto standard for privacy phones is absurd. It’s guaranteed chock full of hardware surveillance tools you can’t remove with custom roms or kernels.
Outside of the Pixel lineup, custom rom support is almost non-existant in 2024. it’s wild, you can get the same or better hardware for half the price.
Xiaomis and some other chinease brands have decent custom rom support, but no grapheneos and no bootloader relocking (except some oneplus phones)
I have a Xiaomi, I love their hardware and the fact that it’s bugged by a foreign nation rather than my own. But Xiaomi software is garbage and flashing is an absolute pain. I looked at what rom support modern Xiaomi devices have and I am not impressed. It’s almost all half baked or not privacy oriented. I’ve been struggling with one of said ROMs for years.
I am sick of flashing one-off ROMs without proper support or OTA, and constant system level bugs.
I’d love to have a manufacturer with open-source/open hardware focused cheap high performance repairable hardware and with privacy ROMs as a first-class citizen. Like a Fairphone if it was good.
But sadly all of these devices end up with bad support too in the end.
I think the main issue is that most ROM developers today only buy the most high end flagship devices, since those are the only ones that get any decent support. I’m guessing that’s because they all got high paying tech jobs now.
Well, there is no support from privacy roms, but I can survive with lineageos+microg (with somewhat decent updates) on redmi 4x. There is support for poco f5 and redmi 12 from crdroid, which supports microg and is apparently decent.
If you buy one used that is how you can get around giving Google money.
From a security standpoint it might give you a temporary benefit since all of Google’s tracking IDs will be associated with the original owner. On a new phone I figure it’s associated with you immediately.
Not really. You carry arround a Google devices and people notice the brand and devices are more valuable when also desired second hand.
All of this supports Google
Cover the G logo with a pop socket or some shit. No one will give enough of a shit to desire your phone. Buying used always denies OEMs sales so its always good to buy used
honestly the only thing that is stopping me moving rn is Google Pay contactless for my bank cards and my bank app having ridiculous requirements with safetycheck.
Definitely go ahead and tell your bank that you are annoyed by their mobile app only working on the stock OS. Call them, send them an email, whatever. If enough people complain or even threaten to switch banks over this, they might add better support using actual secure hardware-based attestation, which also works on GrapheneOS.
I even switched banks because of their ridiculous requirements for the mobile app, just so I could continue using GrapheneOS. I know that Graphene is much more secure than any other Android-based OS, and running my banking app on it is much safer than on another device. Banks should finally realize this too, which is why we need to complain.
