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That’s a misleading Y-axis. The difference (in self-reported subjective happiness rating 1–10 too) is not as significant as the graphic implies visually.
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Phew, I use Librewolf on Artix Linux. I’m safe 👍
The difference (in self-reported subjective happiness rating 1–10 too) is not as significant as the graphic implies visually
Ah here is another one. So what? It makes the difference more distinguishable, which also the graph denotes numerically. Otherwise all Linux distros users would appear too flat to make any difference interpretable.
The fact that there are at least two such comments around here shows why teaching anything in schools is doomed to fail.
Even critical thinking skills are applied in a canned, thought-terminating fashion, similar to how XX/XY chromosomes are considered the only reality, in overconfident falsehood.
What a bizarre reply. It implies that the difference is statistically significant when it’s in fact much less so.
Otherwise all Linux distros users would appear too flat to make any difference interpretable.
That is the point. The graph obscures this.
Ah the statistical significance, which as everybody knows is assessed …visually? Mic drop
BTW I have another comment here, totally irrelevant to this discussion, that I bring up statistical siGnifiCAnsE as an example of confident falsehood. Thanks for proving me right lol
Edit: here it is for context ( from https://lemmy.ml/post/17638298/12096466 )
Layman statistics is not the hill I would die on. Otherwise (being guilty of the fallacy myself) I now think that making a subject mandatory school lesson will only make people more confidently incorrect about it, so this is another hill I won’t die on for probability and statistics. See for instance the widespread erroneous layman use of “statistical significance” (like “your sample of partners is not statistical significant”) you see it is a lost cause. They misinterpret it because they were taught it. Also professionals have been taught it and mess it up more than regularly to the point we can’t trust studies or sth any more. So the solution you suggest is teach more of it? Sounds a bit like the war on drugs.
I’m not trying to do layman statistics. I’m stating that the graph obscures the magnitude of the difference between people’s ratings. You seem to be suggesting that I’m trying to do some kind of formal or specialist critique of the graph. I’m not. I didn’t go to school or anything and I am simply making a lay observation. If you disagree with it you can say without being so obfuscating yourself.
Although there is a common tip in critical thinking classes that manipulating the Y-axis range can lead to misleading presentation of a difference, I believe in this particular graph, which clearly provides numbers to compare, you can’t say it is misleading.
People can read and compare the values and draw their own conclusions. And I am saying that without any consideration of the distros discussed, since I am impartial to distros, I like all distros I have tried.
This “study” almost certainly must have way deeper assumptions- and metrics- related problems to start with, so even finding myself having this argument is preposterous. But I am just pointing out the misapplication of critical thinking guideline, and this is a valid point which I insist everyone who relies on to consider, if you care about critical thinking at all.
No one said you are doing layman statistics, the pasted comment is from another discussion, provided here for context, and for very good reasons. It aligns with obvious misconceptions about statistics that should be pointed out. Probability and statistics are thorny subjects that nonetheless are inevitable in order to understand the world surrounding us, material, social, and economic, so yes I will nitpick here and call out the misapplication of canned critical thinking thought-terminating cliches.
I am not trying to apply a “critical thinking guideline” I saw elsewhere. I’ve not taken any “critical thinking classes”. I’m more insulted that you think I couldn’t have possibly just thought of that comment myself. It’s not a particularly crazy comment to make, and I don’t see why any individual who knows how to read graphs couldn’t just happen to make that comment.
Anyway—sure, I never said the graph lied. Perhaps a better wording would be that, regardless of how the information is presented, I don’t think the difference in magnitude between people’s happiness ratings (ignoring the issues with how those ratings were collected and ascertained in the first place) is significant or particularly of note. The Y-axis is chosen so as to visually amplify this difference. I didn’t claim the data presented by the graph was untrue or that reading the graph correctly was too difficult if one wanted to read it properly.
I really did not mean to be insulting. I am just saying chart makers can choose to make a zoom in, and it is not automatically propaganda or something. All this has led people astray of the real issues, like WTF is measuring ‘happiness’ on a 1-10 scale, and what are the metric properties of this 1-10 scale. Then there are all the sampling issues and what have you. I just expected more people discussing this stuff rather than the Y-axis.
There’s not a lot of data to work with, and the kind of test used to determine significance is not the same across the board, but in this case you can do an analysis of variance. Start with a null hypothesis that the happiness level between distros are insignificant, and the alternative hypothesis is that they’re not. Here are the assumptions we have to make:
- An alpha value of 0.05. This is somewhat arbitrary, but 5% is the go-to threshold for statistical significance.
- A reasonable sample size of users tested for happiness, we’ll go with 100 for each distro.
- A standard deviation between users in distro groups. This is really hard to know without seeing more data, but as long as the sample size was large enough and in a normal distribution, we can reasonably assume s = 0.5 for this.
We can start with the total mean, this is pretty simple:
(6.51 + 6.71 + 6.74 + 6.76 + 6.83 + 6.9 + 6.93 + 7 + 7.11 + 7.12 + 7.26) / 11 = 6.897
Now we need the total sum of squares, the squared differences between each individual value and the overall mean:
Arch: (6.51 - 6.897)^2 = 0.150 Fedora: (6.71 - 6.897)^2 = 0.035 Mint: (6.74 - 6.897)^2 = 0.025 openSUSE: (6.76 - 6.897)^2 = 0.019 Manjaro: (6.83 - 6.897)^2 = 0.005 Ubuntu: (6.9 - 6.897)^2 = 0.00001 Debian: (6.93 - 6.897)^2 = 0.001 MX Linux: (7 - 6.897)^2 = 0.011 Gentoo: (7.11 - 6.897)^2 = 0.045 Pop!_OS: (7.12 - 6.897)^2 = 0.050 Slackware: (7.26 - 6.897)^2 = 0.132
This makes a total sum of squares of 0.471. With our sample size of 100, this makes for a sum of squares between groups of 47.1. The degrees of freedom for between groups is one less than the number of groups (
df1 = 10
).The sum of squares within groups is where it gets tricky, but using our assumptions, it would be:
number of groups * (sample size - 1) * (standard deviation)^2
Which calculates as:
11 * (100 - 1) * (0.5)^2 = 272.25
The degrees of freedom for this would be the number of groups subtracted from the sum of sample sizes for every group (
df2 = 1089
)Now we can calculate the mean squares, which is generally the quotient of the sum of squares and the degrees of freedom:
# MS (between) 47.1 / 10 = 4.71 // Doesn't end up making a difference, but just for clarity # MS (within) 272.25 / 1089 = 0.25
Now the F-statistic value is determined as the quotient between these:
F = 4.71 / 0.25 = 18.84
To not bog this down even further, we can use an F-distribution table with the following calculated values:
- df1 = 10
- df2 = 1089
- F = 18.84
- alpha = 0.05
According to the linked table, the F-critical value is between 1.9105 and 1.8307. The calculated F-statistic value is higher than the critical value, which is our indication to reject the null hypothesis and conclude that there is a statistical significance between these values.
However, again you can see above just how many assumptions we had to make, that the distribution of the data within each group was great in number and normally varied. There’s just not enough data to really be sure of any of what I just did above, so the only thing we have to rely on is the representation of the data we do have. Regardless of the intentions of whoever created this graph, the graph itself is in fact misrepresent the data by excluding the commonality between groups to affect our perception of scale. There’s a clip I made of a great example of this:
There’s a pile of reasons this graph is terrible, awful, no good. However, it’s that scale of the y-axis I want to focus on.
This is an egregious example of this kind of statistical manipulation for the point of demonstration. In another comment I ended up recreating this bar graph with a more proper scale, which has a lower bound of 0 as it should. It’s suggested that these are values out of 10, so that should be the upper bound as well. That results in something that looks like this:
In fact, if you wanted you could go the other way and manipulate data in favor of making something look more insignificant by choosing a ridiculously high upper bound, like this:
But using the proper scale, it’s still quite difficult to tell. If these numbers were something like average reviews of products, it would be easy in that perspective to imagine these as insignificant, like people are mostly just rating 7/10 across the board. However, it’s the fact that these are Linux users that makes you imagine that the threshold for the differences are much lower, because there just aren’t that many Linux users, and opinions wildly vary between them. This also calls into question how that data was collected, which would require knowing how the question was asked, and how users were polled or tested to eliminate the possibility of confounding variables. At the end of the day I just really could not tell visually if it’s significant or not, but that graph is not a helpful way to represent it. In fact, I think Excel might be to blame for this kind of mistake happening more commonly, when I created the graph it defaulted the lower bound to 6. I hope this was helpful, it took me way too much time to write 😂
Oh sport, and I thought I was the one beating on a dead horse here. I understand why people claim to take issue with the Y-axis range. I am just saying chart makers can zoom in to make a point, and it is not automatically misleading. That is all. Anyway, thanks for writing this. Looks like a lot of effort, and some of it will make sense in my stats coursework, thanks!
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I know the differences between these metrics are inconsequential because the happiness view doesn’t start at 0, but it still makes me want to shout “what the fuck are gentoo users so happy about” lol
Not needing to deal with arch users, also having nice reading time (compiling a Firefox update on a laptop)
because the happiness view doesn’t start at 0
How is that so?
The scale on the left doesn’t start at zero, so the difference is smaller than the size of the bars make it seem. The difference between #1 Slackware, and last spot Arch, is 0.75 points in a 0 to 10 scale, but the bar size of Slackware is about 2.5x bigger than the bar for the Arch users.
Fair. You know these figures right out from the graph don’t you?
Just to kind of demonstrate that idea, I’ve recreated the graph in Excel with the axis starting at 0. I think Excel might actually be to blame for this happening so much, its auto selection actually wanted to pick 6, gross.
This is indeed misleading. It has no numerical figures, and it wastes loads of ink and screen space. The other one is better structured as a chart. I a sorry you spent your time to demonstrate something we all know, but may be Excel has good reasons that cuts off the axis at 6.
The axis is cut off below 6, so the difference between the columns’ size isn’t representative of the actual scale
Because it works and we didn’t need to change anything in the last 20 years. I don’t even think about it.
Whenever I try something else, problems come as soon as I want something that’s not default. Which is often.
I don’t even know how to install Gentoo. I did it two times, second time was when upgrading to 64bit architecture.
Fair enough, it’s just one of those distros you find a lot of those elitists in. Even had a “friend” tell me I wasn’t really a Linux user because I don’t use arch, then gentoo, then openbsd
Let’s go Pop!_OS! We’re #2! We’re #2!
Coming for #1 baby
That will happen after the stable release of cosmic de
Fuck that. I could not be happier with Fedora.
I love fedora but I do wish that GNOME had a better command line tool for opening windows on different workstations. I just want to automate more easily (I think Wayland is a factor too).
I could not be happier with Fedora.
It wasn’t trying to asses one’s happiness/satisfaction with their OS of choice, it was instead looking at the general life happiness of people, broken down by their OS of choice.
This checks out. I love fedora but I hate my life.
The score seems very similar to that of the US average life satisfaction score of 6.72. I assume the survey was done in the US.
This seems like a classic case of Confounding . The happier scores seem to be from people that have more money (ios, macos ,pop os) , and people that have technical skills (slackware, gentoo , mobile linux) which are probably more educated and earn more money which iirc according to research correlates with being more happy. Arch users might have higher screen time which might cause lower levels of happiness. slackware might have older users which iirc according to research are happier.
Of course this is not a scientific study , it hasn’t been peer reviewed and this could all be statistical noise.
I think the best way to make linux users happier is have by default in the distro a course on being happier, i can’t find the link but iirc the course on coursera increased the score by 1 point (so probably somewhere around from 6.7/10 to 7.7/10), I spent a while learning about this stuff and experienced a similar jump (Although i don’t know if i will keep it if there will be some strong negative event).
The polling period was also short, and for many might be during winter months where happiness reporting could be less
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I am running arch and Firefox and i can confirm i am miserable.
I love it tho
Miserable because Grandma hasn’t figured it out yet.😆
We are miserable because we are disillusioned.
It looks like it’s about doing real work instead of tweaking your distro 🫠
Bro, I rage at Ubuntu. Literally. Kinda unhappy when at work and using my Kubuntu.
(But unhappiest with Windows)
At home, 4 Devices use Arch Linux and I am the happiest person on earth with them. I love knowing how I set them up and how to fix something when broken.
I reinstalled Windoes 4 times because it somehow broke, while I still kept my Arch Linux through over 4 years.
(Generally, I dont tinker much with Arch Linux and generally was a Person who spent a lot of time with a Girlfriend. I read that wife, kids and etc was a point. Thus, I am mentioning how satisfied I am not only with my OS but life too. I also love my work, I just ignore that Ubuntu breaks sometimes. But generally, I wished I would be hsing Arch on my work)
So of the three happiest distros, two aren’t very concerned with mainstream appeal and will carry on contentedly doing their thing while ignoring rankings like this. Sounds about right.
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That’s strange, apart from installing it, Arch is pretty painless to run if you’re not careless
You’re assuming that Arch causes the unhappiness. Maybe unhappy people naturally tend to use Arch, so as to avoid further pain from painful distros like Pop! OS?.
Oh shit, I was miserable back when I installed Arch. Dang, you might be onto something there!
So… Arch makes sad people happy…?
No, that’s just bloat feelings
I dunno, I was pretty stoked installing Arch almost a decade ago after my spouse surprised me with a brand new PC he built for my birthday. Was also stoked installing Arch, in more recent years, on the PC I built.
And I’ve been at my most miserable in life while being a Windows user 🫠
I knew it I should’ve chosen Gentoo instead of arch
Such polls / surveys are extremely questionable. I wouldn’t even know what rating to give, if someone asks me how happy I am. This is a dumb question to ask to begin with. Let alone everyone has a different standard to what 10/10 or 5/10 means. And then only 6000 (+ some) have been taken part.
I can’t believe this was a real poll / survey.
You can just take it for what it is: How people respond when asked to grade their happiness from 1 to 10. Of course it’s subjective, but it’s interesting that arch users rate their happiness lower overall.
I think its bullshit. There is no way of verifying if this is bullshit or not.
Same. I call bullshit. First of all, for me Lunduke = Bullshit. Second, the moment it said people voluntarily participated in this survey, you just know that the demography of the survey takers will be extremely biased.
Also the graph is pretty much zoomed in. It exaggerates the differences between the bars.
The following data was obtained from polling done between January 22nd and February 9th, 2023. A few details about the polling conducted:
6,022 people answered the questions.
This is significantly larger than the vast majority of national polls conducted during Presidential Elections in the USA (most of which have less than 2,000 respondents).
The poll was presented to audiences of several shows and news sites in order to obtain a large, diverse sample of computer nerds.
The questions were wide-ranging, 100% optional, and no personal data was collected.Let’s start from a very high level:
6,022 computer nerds & enthusiasts were asked the following simple question: “On a scale of 1 to 10, how happy would you say you are (in general)?”In polls the demographics of the participants are selected so they are statistically significant.
When you poll visitors to a website there’s no telling what biases might be at work. For example, Arch is a popular distribution so its prevalence in the results could simply be an indicator of that.
Last but not least, correlation does not necessarily mean causation, and that goes especially for an uncontrolled sample. There’s a famous example that says “100% of the people who drink water die after that”.
You can’t compare to the President Elections in the USA. The answers are very serious and with a huge impact, so people will choose wisely. And they are complete randoms. Compared to the question to nerds how happy they are in a rating between 1 and 10 and then connecting the happiness to the operating system they are using. It’s like asking how happy people are and then connecting this to the current president. Who said other factors didn’t play a role?
@thingsiplay @superkret Here! Here!
That was the longest “I am using arch btw” I have ever seen. And while I am on the topic, I am using arch btw.
Not exactly, I use EndeavourOS, almost Arch. But I use Firefox, BTW. I was more unhappy when I used Ubuntu and even more when I was using Windows before this. No idea what rating to give though. What even is 8/10 happiness??
You made the post so I didn’t have to!
smart
also it’s reported on by lunduke so it should be immediately discarded
The unhappiest people always want to tell you how to live your life.
Because they don’t want you to make the same mistake.
“I use arch so you don’t have to.”