I keep seeing this instance is overrun with tankies so hey, lets do an informal survey like I’ve seen on hexbear
respond with YES or NO in the first line of your comment and i’ll tally everything in a couple of days, lets say I’ll try and collect everything on the sunday the 9th (10+gmt sorry)
not sure thisll work, be nice, have fun
YES
If wanting to receive basic human rights (food, housing, etc.), attend education without being discriminated against for my income and mental condition, control my workplace, earn the full value of my wages, have a government actually controlled by the people, all while being politically educated in past socialist movements and their theory to achieve all these things, then I’m sure as hell am a tankie, and I don’t care what online liberals say.
Stalin rules, by the way. ✊
You say you support authoritarianism, and then you say “have a government that is actually controlled by the people”. Are you stupid?
Where did they say they support authoritarianism?
If we ignored everything they said before because they did supposition, they literally said “Stalin rules”. What part of that doesn’t scream authoritarianism?
Seems more intentionally inflamatory than anything else, considering they literally told you what they wanted before that line.
What do you believe Tankies actually desire?
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support acts of repression by such regimes or their allies. – Wikipedia
I use the label “tankie” on people who support dictators like Stalin and Xi Jinping and actively push for an authoritarian state. Not sure if them putting “Stalin rules, by the way. ✊” was not serious and/or intentionally inflamatory.They don’t count as a tankie then, they quite plainly told you they wanted a democratically controlled state. Or is democracy authoritarian, in your view?
Nope. As I said, not sure if them putting “Stalin rules, by the way. ✊” was not serious and/or intentionally inflammatory.
If they used it seriously, as in supporting Stalin and his acts, don’t they still count as a tankie?
Why does Stalin “rule”? This is a question from a fellow “leftist.”
Either ignorant, or you’re just a really bad person. Just such a stupid fucking thing to say. Take a step back from the Internet and read a book. Saying “Stalin rules ✊” doesn’t make you cool, it just makes you look like an idiot.
Stalin was a paranoid, murderous dictator responsible for the unnecessary deaths of countless millions of people. Or does it not count because he didn’t murder them himself?
Can’t wait to hear about how the holomodor wasn’t his fault…
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
You are engaging in what is known as the “double genocide” theory, which is a soft form of Holocaust denial. Cut that shit out, you are repeating literal nazi propaganda.
NO
Tankie is a meaningless word. If you point out China has undeniably made progress under communism, you’re a tankie. If you point out Stalin wasn’t the evil dictator westerners make him out to be (even though it’s disproven by the literal CIA itself) you’re a tankie, if you think capitalism is causing problems in the USA you’re a tankie. If you criticise US or NATO foreign policy you’re a tankie. If you criticise the Republicans you’re a Tankie. If you criticise the Dems, guess what also a tankie. If you think that the USSR and the PRC are/were perfect little angels that never made any mistakes or did anything wrong ever then you’re also a Tankie.
It’s just too broad a term for me or anyone to identify with any way. It’s not an ideology. It’s a dumb insult to dismiss the opinions of others you disagree with without having to engage with their point at all or critically analyse your own beliefs in any meaningful way.
Organizing a union? Pushing for higher wages? Defending your people from reactionary aggression?
Not voting? Don’t hate the US’s main enemies, like Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Syria, Palestine, the DPRK?
Believe it or not, tankie.
Eat beans instead of meat for protein? No trial, no jury, straight to being a Tankie. Not eat a specific brand of beans I.e. Goya? Believe it or not also a Tankie. We have the best diets in the world.
Removed by mod
You are a little dense for implying a PDF link to CIA government website is out to get you.
It’s a PDF file from a .gov website. Are you fucking dumb?
That’s a lot of mod interventions for a one month old account.
You’re what I might call “high maintenance.”
No
On economic policy I am quite far left - I support a low Gini coefficient, achieved through a mixed economy, but with state provided options (with no ‘think of the businesses’ pricing strategy) for the essentials and state owned options for natural monopolies / utilities / media.
But on social policy, I support social liberties and democracy. I believe the government should intervene, with force if needed, to protect the rights of others from interference by others (including rights to bodily safety and autonomy, not to be discriminated against, the right to a clean and healthy environment, and the right not to be exploited or misled by profiteers) and to redistribute wealth from those with a surplus to those in need / to fund the legitimate functions of the state. Outside of that, people should have social and political liberties.
I consider being a ‘tankie’ to require both the leftist aspect (✅) and the authoritarian aspect (❌), so I don’t meet the definition.
“Mixed economy” and “far left” don’t go together, unless you are using that as a platform to achieve a fully Socialist economy in the future.
Congratulations, your ideology cannot be implemented in the real world because the ruling class interests will do anything in their power to stop anything like it from ever being implemented and you reject the use of force to displace these said ruling class interests, who are currently boiling the plane alive killing millions of people through pollution, healthcare neglect, war and disease.
Capitalists societies have only ever implemented mixed economies with (relatively) low gini coefficients in the aftermath of WW2, when both the working class was armed (and willing to use force) and there existed an existential threat in the form of the soviet union. Outside of these conditions, capitalists societies have maintained extremely irrational forms of organization.
It is not sufficient to have some idea of what kind of society you want, you also need to think about the kinds of conditions under which said society could actually exist irl.
Yes. I get called one everytime i defend or advocate for anything left of Bernie Sanders. "
“Communism is the riddle of history solved, and knows itself to be the solution.”
Is as true today as it was when Marx wrote it almost 200 years ago.
I’m an entire armored divisionYES
They would have burned me as a heretic in the middle ages.
- Carl Jung
Just like calling someone a “witch” or heretic in the middle ages, a “barbarian”, or “savage”, or “commie” or “pinko” in the 20th century, these terms are less about the actual meaning, and more about a demonization, scapegoating, or a power relation between the dominant class, and a group they seek to malign and rally their people around.
Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.
“Tankie” had a meaning that generally referred to non-pacifist leftists (or those that agreed with using violence to defend socialist projects), but now it just means, “any leftist I don’t like”.
It functions in the exact same way that “commie” did in the the McCarthy era, as a xenophobic and western-supremacist scapegoating of socialist countries, and an internal purging of the working-class communist movement.
It’s additionally useful because it deters people from reading or engaging with the worldwide communist / socialist movement.
If someone uses this term, this is what they’re doing without realizing it:
now it just means, “any leftist I don’t like”.
With respect, there’s a bit more to it than that.
The way political discussions are often policed on this server, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear is not conducive to welcoming new people to your point of view. If a, let’s say, social democrat says something critical of the CCP and then is immediately censured or even banned then they are going to depart with a very negative impression, which only feeds into the stereotypes about these instances and stifles healthy political discussion.
Also, aren’t people on .ml, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear also guilty of the same thing when they use of the word “liberal” in a pejorative sense to denote “anyone left-of-centre who doesn’t support communist party rule”?
It’s a shame that leftist infighting exists to such a degree we often share about 95% of the same views to an external observer.
The way political discussions are often policed on ML instances (This one, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear) is not conducive to helping new people see your point of view.
If you ask in earnest, you’ll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting. Kind of like how POC get tired of justifying their existence to white supremacists, communists often for good reason get tired of trying to justify the existence of countries who choose to follow their own path, outside of the model of bourgeois democracy.
Aren’t people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched “liberals” (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn’t support communist party rule)? Whether it’s “tankie” or “liberal”, it only further entrenches the us vs them mindset.
Liberal, unlike tankie, has a fairly precise meaning in political discourse. It can be used too loosely IMO, but it generally means pro-capitalism, pro-individual freedom (including to exploit labor power to earn surplus value), pro free-market, pro-free speech (for all including reactionaries), pro wage-slavery, as well as specific limitations imposed on those considered outside of the “community of the free”. Its important to realize that even the US mis-definition of liberal (as vaguely socially progressive) includes all of the above, and the internationally accepted definition of liberal, is right wing (for example, the right wing party in Australia is the liberal party). The best book I can recommend here, is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter-history.
Not only that, but liberals rule most of the world, and especially most of the economies and governments of anglo-speaking countries, extracting a surplus from the sale of their labor power (who are mostly extremely poorly paid proletarians in the global south), and are responsible for most of the suffering of working-class people worldwide.
If you ask in earnest, you’ll get good responses. A good number of people ask questions not to learn a different point of view, but to reinforce their own existing biases, which naturally becomes exhausting.
That is understandable, however I was more talking about good-faith attempts to express views that are contrary to ML orthodoxy being dogpiled, removed, and banned. I have personal direct experience with this, as do many others who have attempted to engage in political discussions in ML communities. Perhaps users of the ML persuasion are used to being attacked and this why contrarian views are so heavily moderated on ML instances, but quite often this defensive response only leads to alienating other leftists who could be sympathetic to your point of view.
Also, I already understand quite well the differences between classical, social, and neo-liberalism, and how the term is used in the US; I have degree in political science. My point was that users on ML instances weaponize the term in the same way that other users utilize the term “tankie” in order to dismiss people who disagree with them, ad hominem.
If you ask in earnest, you’ll get good responses.
This is not the case. Every time I’ve asked in earnest, I’ve faced mobs of lunatics.
[Citation needed]
social democrat says something critical of the CCP
You mean the same ones that support their western establishment and its narratives? Or the anti-China/Russia rhetoric that CIA, Bilderberg, USAID and Murdoch invent and push, that these socdems also help in pushing? Such people can never be aligned ultimately, and are subservient to western empire.
You think Bernie supporting the bombing of Yugoslavia was a one off incident? Name one US president that has not been a warmongerer.
I do not want the likes of Bernie, Vaush, Destiny, Keffals and such clowns to be representative of, and make the Left a populist thing.
Aren’t people on ML instances also doing the exact same thing when they shout down and decry the wretched “liberals” (which seems to refer to anyone left-of-centre who doesn’t support communist party rule)?
Liberal is a well defined category though. Liberalism as a self-described ideology opposed to both communism and monarchy has been around for centuries at this point. Most people being decried as liberals would themselves identify as liberals.
Wtf. Talk about twisting truths.
Don’t like people putting up a mirror to you?
My only regret in that photo is not seeing Bhagat Singh, because him and his Marxist comrades were responsible for liberating India from British Raj. Bhagat seems to be less recognised or celebrated among the poster boy global Marxist figures.
None of them are considered Marxist or even Socialist in the country now unfortunately. They have been successfully whitewashed as nationalist heroes.
Bhagat Singh has an entry on Marxists.org, which is even more absurd. There is no way these were nationalist people. If that is the case, every socialist is basically a nationalist, every nationalist a patriot, and every patriot a rightwinger. Whoops, did I do something wrong?
no i like watching tanks get blown up
NO
I like having no boots on my neck, not just changing out what demographic is wearing it
No. I’m a non-tendency leftist. But I disagree with tankies being labelled as “fascists”. They’re not. They’re just Marxist-Leninists/Stalinists and I find their views pretty consistent with orthodox ML-ism.
Yes.
The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.
Removed by mod
Why?
Because it fails and morphs into an authoritarian hellhole every single time without exception?
Does it? What do you consider to be a “failure?” What do you consider to be “authoritarian?”
no
Yes.
Just go ask the 196 mods.
Maybe?
What the heck is a tankie, anyways? Every person I have asked has had a different answer, and the vast majority of these definitions don’t really fit any major communities on Lemmy, not even Hexbear or Lemmygrad.
I have been called a tankie for numerous reasons, like saying that people should read Marx, to saying the US is a net negative on global stability.
Is being a Marxist sufficient for being a tankie? What about a Marxist-Leninist? Are only Dengists tankies? Is Anarchism the only non-tankie leftist position?
I think this question needs a definition first. If you ask 10 different people what a “tankie” is, you’ll get 11 different answers.
I mean we asked you and got six, so…
I’ve seen all of them, I don’t personally endorse any of those definitions, haha
This is the crux of it: where once there was some kind of definition, now it’s just a snarl word for “leftist who makes points I can’t refute.”
Yep, it’s Lemmy’s Red Scare.
I am curious if there is going to be a schizm between .world aligned instances and Hexbear/grad/.ml aligned instances, where .world sees an eventual gradual exodus of leftists as they recieve a steady influx of liberals from Reddit.
I just don’t see the point of using lemmy unless they’re a leftist in the first place.
Reddit already exists, and has a much bigger userbase that’s already pro-US and heavily anti-communist.
If it’s just because reddit took away the app treats, that’s kind of a sad reason to use an explicitly anti-corporate software, but I’m sure there’s a chunk of ppl on lemmy don’t think much past that.
Fwiw, a lot of us were ready to leave it anyway. Reddit used to be a place for left-leaning people, though I would guess more of the progressive liberal-relative-to-center variety, due to it being started from within the USA (I joined it quite late so not totally sure).
Its downhill slide was long and convoluted and not evenly distributed across all subs. There were pockets of resistance, and probably some niche communities remain even now that are halfway tolerable. Anything worth doing takes real effort to build, and some people have put in those efforts and held on tenaciously. And, to be very clear, morally as well: e.g. places that try to reach the maximum audience possible to combat misinformation, or suicidal or similar behaviors - those places NEED to be on Reddit, yes and even Twitter/X, and 🤮 Facebook too, to achieve their aims of maximal outreach (at which point they could do dual duty to funnel people to the real places too:-).
For those of us that want deeper discourse, Reddit was not meeting that need, but Lemmy/Mbin very much does:-). Btw fascinating related article: https://medium.com/@max.p.schlienger/the-cargo-cult-of-the-ennui-engine-890c541cebcb.
So that’s one category of people, and another is the set of those who just needed to be awakened in order to realize what was going on. Maybe they were busy with children irl or some such and didn’t notice Reddit’s slide. I am glad that we can provide a home to them as well - it enriches us all to have more people here (mostly).
Let’s analyze it.
Reddit is declining in a way liberals can’t deny. The more ideological among these liberals attempt to leave, but without theory, without knowledge of Marxism, or even Anarchism, without a firm understanding of Historical and Dialectical Materialism, their world view is framed in a manner that casts Capitalism as bad, in an almost Ultraleftist manner.
They occupy a space that considers Capitalist countries with pure nuance and critical support, but only judge leftist movements as though they are Ultras, and nothing is satisfactory.
From there, Liberals seek a replacement, and further still they don’t quite accept federation, so they go to the largest generalist instance. This is Lemmy.world, so they get to have a space filled with ex-redditors kicked out by Capitalism’s failings, but unwilling to embrace any actual alternative, occupying a weird middle ground.
Therefore, Lemmy.world appeals to radical, theoryless liberals, with no specific or niche interests, and creates an echo-chamber around that specific anti-specificity.
Just my 2 cents.
Dialectically, I believe eventually .world will defed from .ml, or vice-versa, from some unimportant inciting incident, creating a multi-polar Lemmy, so to speak, but that’s a bit odd to say directly to you. Either way, I see a contradiction that appears to be growing, so Dialectically there will likely be a shift from the quantitative to qualitative, so to speak.
but only judge leftist movements as though they are Ultras
the radlib/ultra/maoist overlaps are a source of fascination for me.
IMO it stems from a reaction to Red Scare Propaganda, a counter to it, combined with Marx himself being thoroughly de-fanged into being “good, but outdated.” Marxists are harmless, or even have a few good points, but Capitalism won!
They believe Red Scare Propaganda was purely about Marx himself and not leftist movements, they realize America is Imperialist but also believe their propaganda to be true.
It’s a weird and likely unique overlap that will simply no longer exist as time goes on and we move beyond the Red Scare ever further, and Capitalism continues to decline.
If there is to be a shift from the quantitative to the qualitative, then I think that—whatever of the proximate cause that breaks the camel’s back—this US election will be the ultimate cause.
That’s a good point, and I’m inclined to agree. I hadn’t actually put 2 and 2 together there, haha, but it makes a lot of sense.
We will see if the saber rattling actually goes anywhere this time, but it won’t be gone for long if it doesn’t.
That makes sense. lemmy.ml won’t be the one to defed from any of the larger servers, because we want to promote an interconnected fediverse, even if it does mean a lot of cross interaction and potential fights between pro and anti-communists.
Other servers are free to defederate if they wish, obvi its up to a server-owner to run their server how they see best. Even if there’s more rifts in the fediverse, I’m not too worried… the long-term trend though will be towards instances that connect with the most people, and don’t shut themselves out.
I agree with promoting inter-connectedness, I am on Lemmy.ml as opposed to grad or hexbear precisely because I believe in fostering that connection. I do think it’s more likely .world defeds, but currently they want to maintain that same vision of interconnectedness. I can see .world putting it to a vote and letting users defed, to save face, eventually.
I agree, if there does become a multi-polar Lemmy, there will be healthier growth from the more open instances.
Anarchist. I look forward to being kill by tankies moments after the revolution.
