No man, sorry. European here and before this last Trump term nobody cared about the US, nor knew what people did over there.
Now we see all the craziness from Harvard to ICE, and the nonsense of vaccines and Medicare. Some people and companies are actively seeking alternatives to American products, we are talking about an European tech stack for the first time, a multi billion program just started to replace US in defence, there are funds specifically designed to attract American scientists, the EU is coming for startups too, and intense chats with Canada, China and others try to replace the US market.
You are free to believe that Dem were the same, but I can assure you that nothing like the last 6 months pushed the EU to break up with the US and stand up alone. Which is great for us in the old continent.
To tell the full story though, there are some EU groups that still try to tighten the bonds with the US. I’m talking about ECR and the Patriots with leaders such as Meloni and Wilders. They are the far right xenophobic homophobic nazi-fascist area that are basically a noisy minority that a few years ago was all for Putin.
Can you mention past American politics that affected the EU, excluding wars? Anything that sparkled debates and concerns at the level of Trump’s tariffs or declarations about NATO?
I say that, before Trump’s mess, in the EU we didn’t care much about what happened in the US or the decision that were taken there, except for wars or exceptional events like 9/11. Am I wrong?
Europeans may be a bit slow on the uptake, considering much of Europe is still imperial core and it’s all still the global north, but just because European liberals have been struggling to let go of the propaganda that the U.S. is a benevolent force for “order” in the world doesn’t mean that it is suddenly Trump alone that has irrevocably damaged U.S. soft power as well as a positive image of the U.S. in Europe.
and the nonsense of vaccines and Medicare
More examples of issues that were major in the “discourse” under Biden (and earlier). Come on.
Some people and companies are actively seeking alternatives to American products, we are talking about an European tech stack for the first time, a multi billion program just started to replace US in defence, there are funds specifically designed to attract American scientists, the EU is coming for startups too, and intense chats with Canada, China and others try to replace the US market.
And a lot of this takes longer planning than just the 6 months Trump has been in office again. You may not have been aware of it, but many were (I may not be a European, but I have been speaking with plenty of them especially since February of '22). The U.S. has been advertising the fact that its is tightening its leash on its vassals (you Europeans) for a while now, which in turn is unintentional but unconcealable admission that its empire is struggling. Those with eyes to see it, and there are many, most certainly have been watching since long before Trump. I won’t argue that Trump hasn’t ramped it up in terms of how blatant it is with his overt buffoonery and open fascism (as opposed to the Democrat’s false pretense of not being fascist), but to say it’s something that the Democrats do not share in, or haven’t deeply contributed to just as Trump has, well you’re burying your head in the sand.
I honestly don’t mean offense by this because it is so heavily dependent on what you hear in your MSM, but you and those who think this is new are slow on the uptake when compared to Europeans who closely follow this sort of thing, and Europe on the whole considering its relationship to US imperialism is going to be slow on the uptake compared to the rest of the world. And if we’re talking about the rest of the world beyond Europe already knowing these things, well let me just say: BRICS+. But honestly, if you think that even European leaders didn’t take a major fucking lesson from the blowing up of Nordstream, you’re… well, I guess just living under the same rock most of the population who gets their news from major outlets are living under - still doesn’t change the fact that the absolute dismantling of U.S. soft power and power projection (as “defenders” or as a country with whom deals and promises will be kept) is 100% a bipartisan project.
One characteristic of the European politics is that it’s slow. Painfully slow. With 27 countries with veto power and different interests it is certain that at any time you will have any possibility on the table together with its opposite.
Making an EU independent from the US has been certainly a dream for several groups since decades. The idea never got much traction because it seemed more convenient to go in the direction of a single market with the US for some kind of goods.
That was true until Trump’s second term with the tariffs, the NATO power play, and the BS around Greenland. Now there is no doubt that the EU should seek independence from the US and seek agreements with Canada and China first. The only question is how quickly it should be done because some countries (like Germany, Italy and Greece) have more to lose than others and there is the issue with Ukraine.
That said, you are free to think that with Biden it was all the same (or even worse).
One characteristic of the European politics is that it’s slow. Painfully slow.
The glacial pace of European politics helps prove my point. The fact that the pace is slightly quickening may or may not be because of Trump - like I said, I certainly wouldn’t argue against his undeniable increasing of the already rapidly deteriorating global image of the US as being trustworthy, but the whole point is that that deterioration was already happening when he got into office. Your original position is that it was not, that the Europeans feeling that the US cannot be trusted anymore and that the image of the dollar’s supremacy was waning, that all of that rests entirely on the shoulder of the Republicans when that is just demonstrably not true.
That said, you are free to think that with Biden it was all the same (or even worse).
You’re shifting the goalposts a bit there, since I never claimed it was “the same” only that it was already clearly well underway, which I have maintained throughout. Yes, I am free to recognize the objective reality of the situation, just as you are free to, for whatever odd reason, push against it to mistakenly insist that Trump is some sudden and unique outlier in the collapse of US image and power projection when that has demonstrably been going on since before him and will continue after, even if he is ramping up the rate of deterioration.
It’s funny because while we both acknowledge that we can have different opinions, you imply that mine is totally wrong.
Before Trump 2 the US was an ally, the cornerstone of NATO, the place where you want to go to have some kind of career, and so on. We can argue that something changed a bit over the decades, but America was always America. Even during Trump’s first term, for us at least, it was business as usual (despite lots of negative forecasts).
In the last few months all that certainty became questionable at least. I see a remarkable shift in politics, public opinion, and risk assessment at work. “Going European” is a widespread idea. Replacing the US in defence is now for the first time in history a funded project with an end date and clear objectives, including nuclear defence. Quite a few websites emerged to help consumers “buy European” or “check if it’s American”. For the first time in my life, boycotting US is no more something for rebellious teenagers full of ideologies, and people are at work to create here those things that we used to “just buy” from the US. The EU put on the table “the bazooka”: a legal instrument created to kick out China from the continent and that now some (like France) want to use against Trump.
But yeah, you can think that it all started years ago and that I have a secret agenda to defend Biden. Sure, why not?
No man, sorry. European here and before this last Trump term nobody cared about the US, nor knew what people did over there.
Now we see all the craziness from Harvard to ICE, and the nonsense of vaccines and Medicare. Some people and companies are actively seeking alternatives to American products, we are talking about an European tech stack for the first time, a multi billion program just started to replace US in defence, there are funds specifically designed to attract American scientists, the EU is coming for startups too, and intense chats with Canada, China and others try to replace the US market.
You are free to believe that Dem were the same, but I can assure you that nothing like the last 6 months pushed the EU to break up with the US and stand up alone. Which is great for us in the old continent.
To tell the full story though, there are some EU groups that still try to tighten the bonds with the US. I’m talking about ECR and the Patriots with leaders such as Meloni and Wilders. They are the far right xenophobic homophobic nazi-fascist area that are basically a noisy minority that a few years ago was all for Putin.
I’m also European and this is bullshit lmao
Can you mention past American politics that affected the EU, excluding wars? Anything that sparkled debates and concerns at the level of Trump’s tariffs or declarations about NATO?
Why? Why should wars be excluded?
I say that, before Trump’s mess, in the EU we didn’t care much about what happened in the US or the decision that were taken there, except for wars or exceptional events like 9/11. Am I wrong?
Yes. But how are you justifying that caveat?
Europeans may be a bit slow on the uptake, considering much of Europe is still imperial core and it’s all still the global north, but just because European liberals have been struggling to let go of the propaganda that the U.S. is a benevolent force for “order” in the world doesn’t mean that it is suddenly Trump alone that has irrevocably damaged U.S. soft power as well as a positive image of the U.S. in Europe.
More examples of issues that were major in the “discourse” under Biden (and earlier). Come on.
And a lot of this takes longer planning than just the 6 months Trump has been in office again. You may not have been aware of it, but many were (I may not be a European, but I have been speaking with plenty of them especially since February of '22). The U.S. has been advertising the fact that its is tightening its leash on its vassals (you Europeans) for a while now, which in turn is unintentional but unconcealable admission that its empire is struggling. Those with eyes to see it, and there are many, most certainly have been watching since long before Trump. I won’t argue that Trump hasn’t ramped it up in terms of how blatant it is with his overt buffoonery and open fascism (as opposed to the Democrat’s false pretense of not being fascist), but to say it’s something that the Democrats do not share in, or haven’t deeply contributed to just as Trump has, well you’re burying your head in the sand.
I honestly don’t mean offense by this because it is so heavily dependent on what you hear in your MSM, but you and those who think this is new are slow on the uptake when compared to Europeans who closely follow this sort of thing, and Europe on the whole considering its relationship to US imperialism is going to be slow on the uptake compared to the rest of the world. And if we’re talking about the rest of the world beyond Europe already knowing these things, well let me just say: BRICS+. But honestly, if you think that even European leaders didn’t take a major fucking lesson from the blowing up of Nordstream, you’re… well, I guess just living under the same rock most of the population who gets their news from major outlets are living under - still doesn’t change the fact that the absolute dismantling of U.S. soft power and power projection (as “defenders” or as a country with whom deals and promises will be kept) is 100% a bipartisan project.
One characteristic of the European politics is that it’s slow. Painfully slow. With 27 countries with veto power and different interests it is certain that at any time you will have any possibility on the table together with its opposite.
Making an EU independent from the US has been certainly a dream for several groups since decades. The idea never got much traction because it seemed more convenient to go in the direction of a single market with the US for some kind of goods.
That was true until Trump’s second term with the tariffs, the NATO power play, and the BS around Greenland. Now there is no doubt that the EU should seek independence from the US and seek agreements with Canada and China first. The only question is how quickly it should be done because some countries (like Germany, Italy and Greece) have more to lose than others and there is the issue with Ukraine.
That said, you are free to think that with Biden it was all the same (or even worse).
The glacial pace of European politics helps prove my point. The fact that the pace is slightly quickening may or may not be because of Trump - like I said, I certainly wouldn’t argue against his undeniable increasing of the already rapidly deteriorating global image of the US as being trustworthy, but the whole point is that that deterioration was already happening when he got into office. Your original position is that it was not, that the Europeans feeling that the US cannot be trusted anymore and that the image of the dollar’s supremacy was waning, that all of that rests entirely on the shoulder of the Republicans when that is just demonstrably not true.
You’re shifting the goalposts a bit there, since I never claimed it was “the same” only that it was already clearly well underway, which I have maintained throughout. Yes, I am free to recognize the objective reality of the situation, just as you are free to, for whatever odd reason, push against it to mistakenly insist that Trump is some sudden and unique outlier in the collapse of US image and power projection when that has demonstrably been going on since before him and will continue after, even if he is ramping up the rate of deterioration.
It’s funny because while we both acknowledge that we can have different opinions, you imply that mine is totally wrong.
Before Trump 2 the US was an ally, the cornerstone of NATO, the place where you want to go to have some kind of career, and so on. We can argue that something changed a bit over the decades, but America was always America. Even during Trump’s first term, for us at least, it was business as usual (despite lots of negative forecasts).
In the last few months all that certainty became questionable at least. I see a remarkable shift in politics, public opinion, and risk assessment at work. “Going European” is a widespread idea. Replacing the US in defence is now for the first time in history a funded project with an end date and clear objectives, including nuclear defence. Quite a few websites emerged to help consumers “buy European” or “check if it’s American”. For the first time in my life, boycotting US is no more something for rebellious teenagers full of ideologies, and people are at work to create here those things that we used to “just buy” from the US. The EU put on the table “the bazooka”: a legal instrument created to kick out China from the continent and that now some (like France) want to use against Trump.
But yeah, you can think that it all started years ago and that I have a secret agenda to defend Biden. Sure, why not?
it’s slow unless it’s about increasing military spending and support for Israel, then it’s very fast!