Some people enjoy walking on the wings of passenger planes. For some reason Americans are really hostile about which wing is better to stand on while in flight.
Ah good for them . I personelly prefer sitting in the centre to balance everything .
You like to sit in the middle of the alley? I prefer a seat personally…
It’s actually a pretty good metaphor. People sitting on the left side and the right side of the plane are actually taking a seat whereas people sitting in the aisle are just in the fucking way.
In Empire (aka USA) as there is no true opposition, they’re the same picture, the same lobbyists and so on
Right and left are an illusion produced by the people who are sucking up the profits of our labour to pit us against each other.
Especially the US two party system seems to be a racket that lets you choose between conservative corpo shills and science denying fascists. All to extract the maximum amount of money from all people involved.
I think you are wrong to a degree.
The problem is not that the left is an illusion and more that there just is no left wing party in the US.
Like you said there is a right wing party in line with most conservative parties in Europe and there is a protofascist party in line with Putin, American Oligarchy and religious extremism.
That doesn’t mean that an actual leftist movement or party can’t possibly exist or is a mere illusion.
The political system in the US is just purposefully designed not to allow a successful party on the left.Elections are decided in big parts with money, which inherently favours those with money (and corporations are people in the US for some fucked up reason).
This is by design and not something that is natural or automatic.I guess our positions are not that different, I just wanted to add some nuance.
I agree. We mean pretty much the same. I‘m just saying it different.
In my opinion the thought of cleaning your own doorstep before meddling in foreign affairs (one argument of the actual conservatives in opposition to fascists) actually makes a lot of sense to me.
The same goes for treating all people (and even animals, and plants to a degree) the same regardless of anything that doesnt harm others is not an idea of the „radical left“ imo but the opposite is a pure fascist idea and not conservative at all.
The ideas of what conservative or progressive mean are open to interpretation and using it the way modern populists (others call them politicians) do is just to help them get or stay in power.
Actually, representative democracy is a problem in that regard. We should go back to direct democracy in a lot of topics. Go back to the normal person educating themselves in national and local issues instead of voting for „the guy“ because they lie anyway.
That means making time for this education instead of wageslaving 8-16 hrs a day for all mature people on the household. Living with a small family on one full time income is the way it has to be in my opinion. Which partner goes to work or if both so half a day is inconsequential to me.
Words to live by, OP, “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds”
Fascism, a far right wing ideology, is often described as “capitalism in decline,” and is what happens when capitalism desperately clings to any hope of maintaining itself, normally by calling itself back to some mythologized, fictional version of a perceived golden age.
Its also worth noting that we use the terms left and right to described to describe relative position within the overton window (the narrow stretch of “acceptable” politics within a given society) of our current politics, as in, biden is left Bush is right, et cetera, but in a larger view of the political spectrum both the democrats and republicans are right wing parties. There isn’t an objective defintion of who is left/right, but for a lot of people, the dividing line is capitalism itself. If you support capitalism, you’re right wing, if you’re a socialist, communist, or anarchist, you’re a left winger. If, by some miracle, capitalism were to die out tomorrow and every country was some flavor of socialist the dividing line would change to some new metric, and x would be left while y would right. It’s a short hand expression not a hard and fast rule.
Left and right wingers are the people who let all the bad shit happen because they want their football team to win and only care about that.
Nah, that’s moderates and centrists that refuse to actually take a stance because they are privledged enough to benefit from the status quo.
I have a stance. It happens to conflict with both of you clowns. You’re all acting like I have to take the package deal when I’m only interested in Internet. Fuck that nonsense. I want the right to bear arms and have an abortion. Let the gays do whatever they like, but why are they mimicking a religion which says they’re bad? I want higher tax brackets for the ultra wealthy and domestic spending for 3rd places, but I also think it’s a good idea to have our crazy army money because China specifically wants world domination.
Absolutely NONE of this is “central” or “middle ground” because there is not a fucking polarity to the subjects!
You’re all idiots banging your heads together over stupid shit the ultra rich make up to keep you fucking busy! YOU blind idiots are why we can’t have nice things!
This comment screams “I am extremely confident in my own intelligence and have never once listened to a word anyone else has ever said. Bow down to me!”
This screams “ad hominem” you’re just gonna insult my character because you have no argument.
Let’s go through your comment.
“I have a stance. It happens to conflict with both of you clowns.”
-okay, let’s see it.
“You’re all acting like I have to take the package deal when I’m only interested in Internet. Fuck that nonsense.”
-nobody is saying you have to pick a niche view, but views tend to have intersectionality. Ie, antiracists also tend to be anti-transphobia and anti-fascist, because they all come from a similar moral outlook.
“I want the right to bear arms and have an abortion.”
-So do most leftists.
“Let the gays do whatever they like, but why are they mimicking a religion which says they’re bad?”
-gay people are not mimicking a religion in any way, that’s absurd. Pride is about visibility and protection, if that’s what you’re calling a “religion.”
“I want higher tax brackets for the ultra wealthy and domestic spending for 3rd places, but I also think it’s a good idea to have our crazy army money because China specifically wants world domination.”
-so do most leftists. Even if your take on the military is at odds with many leftists, the rest of your views are fairly leftist.
“Absolutely NONE of this is “central” or “middle ground” because there is not a fucking polarity to the subjects!”
-Not necessarily middle ground, just generally ill-informed, given your belief that gay people are mimicking religion.
“You’re all idiots banging your heads together over stupid shit the ultra rich make up to keep you fucking busy! YOU blind idiots are why we can’t have nice things!”
-That’s a firmly leftist position, saying that the rich are dividing the Proletariat against itself to stay in power. That’s not even close to a right wing position.
There you go, firmly answered. You’re a leftist, but one who probably hasn’t actually read theory or taken the time to analyze their own views. I think reading what other leftists have written about leftism might be fantastic for helping you come to terms with your own views and help you understand them better, but that’s your choice to make.
What do you think marriage is?
I’m not about to vote in someone who wants to disarm me just because they’re on my side for a couple of topics. The fact of the matter is that I don’t believe in representation. Direct democracy is the only way to actually get to conclusions.
Keep your labels to yourself.
Leftists aren’t anti-gun, buddy. Direct democracy is good, sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that you’re a leftist that refuses that label.
Marriage isn’t religious.
You’re probably better off not knowing. This stuff never makes a person happy.
“you’re better off not understanding systems of power that have a huge impact on your lives”
If in America then it’s all right wing.
my biggest pet peeve in the world is when people equate liberalism (a right-wing ideology) with the left, solely because the american baseline is so far right compared to europe. the closest shot the US have had of pivoting to proper left-wing is bernie sanders (at least as far as i’m aware, and i’m too scared of further rotting my brain by consuming more american politics)
Bro, the left and right are originally French, not American, and they’re applied worldwide throughout various systems.
Long story short, in the original National Assembly in 1789, people with similar opinions ended up befriending each-other and sitting nearby during the session, so at one point you had all those who thought the revolution ought to go further (give more rights to more people, decrease the power of the king or outright depose him, etc…) sitting on the left, and all those who thought the revolution had gone to far already and ought to slow down sitting on the right.
Of course, by this metric, the very concept of a republic is far left, but the idea is that no matter what system you’re in, once it’s established enough, wanting to maintain the status quo is being a centrist, wanting change that puts more power in the hands of common people is left wing, and opposing such changes or wanting to undo them to “restore order”, often concentrating power in fewer hands, is right wing.
This “power” I speak of was at the beginning just political power, but through the 19th century, the focus shifted towards economic power. Therefore, since the late 19th century, a right wing policy a policy that favors the rich, and a left wing policy one that places restrictions on the right and welfare policy for the poor to decrease inequality. This is why liberals were initially left wing, but neoliberalism is now mostly regarded as a wing ideology. These are policies that want a weaker state, but more rights/powers for rich individuals.
I am very surprised that there is only one legitimate reference to the original coining of these terms from the beginning of the French Revolution so far in this thread asking what these terms mean.
It’s not exactly relevant to a modern conversation, even if the history does highlight the Overton Window and how being the “left” or “right” is still different from being a “leftist” or a “right winger” as left or right wing is usually relative to local politics and “leftist” vs “right winger” refers to broad ideologies.
It depends if you’re watching them from the front or the back. So it can be quite confusing.
I can’t stop recommending the youtube channel what is politics. Seriously: it’s perfect if you’re represented by this meme.
It’s a simple series of videos that explains in digestible terms what right and left are and why everyone should care.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Trump and the republicans are right winged. Biden and democrats are the left.
Thanks fam that’s what i wanted to know.
Just be aware that that answer is very over-simplifying things. “Left” and “right” are supposed to signify political ideas, not certain parties or politicians. You could say that Biden is to the “left” of Trump, but most people who would call themselves “left-wing” would consider Biden a “centrist” (between left and right) at best, maybe even skewing right-wing.
Typical left-wing ideals would be working towards freedom and equality for everyone by solidarity and cooperation, whereas right-wing ideas usually focus around preserving your own privileges by suppressing whomever you consider “outsiders” or “inferiors”.
Good for you.
Now what will the rest of the world do with this info?
I’m just saying that the answer is centred on American politics. The definition of right is Republicans and left the Democrats doesn’t apply anywhere else.
Literally most of history since the black plague has been about this, so like, yeah exactly. What you gonna do?
A dumb and sort of wrong version would be:
- Politically Left: “Society combine for everyone”
- Politically Right: “Freedom for everyone at all cost”
Unfortunately, left and right are rather coarse terms within the political spectrum. Consider looking for some easy explanations to understand the finer details.
Fun Fact: The emergence of the “left” / “right” distinction in the political sense is attributed to the original seating arrangement at the Constituante, the constituent national assembly of 1789 in France.
You are right about most points, but the right is not and never was about freedom, but about cementing a hierarchical order in society.
It used used to be about Aristocrats in France.
Today it is about keeping the rich in power and by extension to rile poor people against even poorer people (often immigrants).If you look at politics through that lense so many more things start to make sense.
Old money hates new money.
Right wing middle class people hate poor people.
Right wing poor people hate immigrants.
They want to look down on somebody.That’s not “sorta” wrong, it’s hella wrong.
- Left: Dismantle existing power hierarchies with the aim of equality.
- Right: Strengthen existing power hierarchies.
Politically Right: “Freedom for everyone at all cost”
Lmmfao…
They don’t give a shit about freedom for anyone but themselves (and especially not that of people who aren’t white, Christian, cis, straight and abled), their actual motives are having as much power and money as possible.
See those jackasses with swastikas, they hate you. They’re the furthest right. See the people with hammers and sickles or black flags and maltovs? They hate each other almost as much as they hate the rich. They’re the furthest left.
In reality the right wing wants lower taxes, more police, more military, less corporate legislation, and to regulate your sexual and medical decisions every moral panic. They also tend to vote how their preacher tells them.
The left wing wants to regulate businesses, fund public works and social services, try to create a more equal society (the right wants hierarchy), and generally supports freedom except when used for bigotry. We also like unions. The further left you go the more you like unions.
Obligatory Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
The left generally wants lower taxes too, just for different people. The left thinks the poorest should pay no taxes, while the right thinks the richest should pay no taxes. (Obviously I’m being hyperbolic, but that’s generally how it plays out.)
What if I want no taxes for the lower class lower taxes for the middle class and small business but much higher taxes on the upper class and large corporations, a very strong military, less but stronger corporate regulation with more teeth, to fund public works and social services with the taxes we bring in, a free and equal society with no hierarchical systems or bigotry, freedom of speech and strong privacy laws with certain restrictions on speech (calls to violence, etc…), very strong unions, a near complete elimination of wall street, and a fair justice system that doesn’t target minorities as prey? Also, guns are fine for self defense in my opinion. Which side do I fall on?
Edit: So if you will read my posts below I talk about how going against groupthink just makes you enemies of the group. Then the group started down voting me down below. I’m really not worried about fake internet points. I just want to make sure that everyone that downvoted me is well aware that my point is well and truly proven. A difference of opinion is not welcome. Even, and especially, if that opinion is, “Stop letting the group think for you. Examine each issue as a separate issue and make fair and reasoned decisions.”
Liberal, but you’d have to give up on guns or find some pro-gun liberals to hang out with.
Eh, liberals tend to not support Unions that much, that’s closer to leftist. Leftists also generally support gun ownership, at least for the Workers.
Leftists support gun ownership for the “right” workers. Not all workers because some may disagree with them
Really? According to who?
How it sounds to me
It really is a bit more nuanced than that.
Say more about that
It’s depressing how many people would be more leftist if America didn’t systemically demonize anything left of mid-right. Instead people feel various ways that Would push them further left (such as pro choice in this image) and instead come up with these logical loops then keep voting Republican because that’s just how they vote.
What if I want no taxes for the lower class lower taxes for the middle class and small business but much higher taxes on the upper class and large corporations
Left.
a very strong military
Typically right, but plenty of examples of marxist-leninist states with strong militaries, such as the USSR or China. And on the less authoritarian side you have the YPG in rojava who was very effective at fighting the Islamic state.
but stronger corporate regulation with more teeth
This one’s a little confusing, would probably need more clarification.
to fund public works and social services with the taxes we bring in
Left.
a free and equal society with no hierarchical systems or bigotry, freedom of speech and strong privacy laws with certain restrictions on speech (calls to violence, etc…), very strong unions, a near complete elimination of wall street, and a fair justice system that doesn’t target minorities as prey?
Left-libertarian/anarchist.
Also, guns are fine for self defense in my opinion.
At least in America, the guns issue is typically viewed as a left vs. right issue, but there’s plenty of folks on the far left that are in favor of guns (socialist rifle association, redneck revolt, John Brown gun club, etc).
Karl Marx even has an often cited quote on guns:
Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary
Which side do I fall on?
Pretty much left. You’re certainly left of the American Democrats. Pretty much the only thing stopping you from being a full on leftist is you don’t seem to be opposed to capitalism itself. Therefore, I’d say most of your positions sound like they fall under social democracy.
Classifications like those just feel kind of arbitrary. Like I get associating with like minded people, but my point was that trying to classify everything in these neat little bottles don’t work. You can make enemies if you don’t check all the opinion boxes no matter where you turn.
For example, I would agree with your military assessment as being left, except that military is never something that should be utilized domestically, unless as a very last resort facing an armed rebellion. Otherwise, its for defense and on the rare occasion offense, but should remain strong, very strong. I would much more readily agree with my conservative acquaintances on this issue and have in the number of conversations I have had as an older fellow.
And I’m not an economist nor a lawyer so any thing that I could really offer as far as corporate regulation would be very general things like, “monopolies bad”. So it would be difficult for me to really collate some kind of list of laws I think we should have, which speaks to the point that most people aren’t experts and just pretend to know the inner workings of systems they have no training in.
I would agree that I fall left of center, but only because it averages out that way. I have some very “conservative” opinions that are dwarfed by the “progressive” opinions that I have. Like, you cant take a bunch of opinions someone has and go, “You are just like those guys!” That will inevitably be proven wrong.
Regardless, I appreciate your response.
Classifying you as a leftist doesn’t mean that you have to agree with other leftists on everything, or that you aren’t allowed to have a few opinions that are right-wing too. It just means that your opinions tend to fall on the left side of the spectrum.
In other words, people aren’t left wing because they identify as left and then that determines their opinions. They’re left wing because, regardless of how they came to their conclusions on what their opinions should be, those opinions are on the left.
I appreciate your and and your opinion. I feel that it is important that I stress that anything that I type is not meant as an attack and is merely discussion. I love discussion it brings me a greater understanding everytime I am invited to participate. To the point, what you said in your post is something that I find to be untrue and is the point of what I am trying to say.
Firstly, no matter where you go people vote you off the island if you disagree with group think. I have seen it happen a number of times. There are specific issues that will get you ousted much more quickly to be true, but those issues aren’t necessarily core tenets of whatever the group philosophy is.
Secondly, as long as I have been alive I have found people who due to groupthink will always take the group’s ideas as a point of fact, creating the situations I am talking about. I am trying to say that the way that we do politics, separating things into large groups creates more harm than good.
I am not left because my ideas are left wing. I am left wing because you tell me I’m left wing. Then I identify as such, then connect with like minded people. Then group think takes hold and an equilibrium is reached wherein each idea is given a value.
Those in the group that disagree on principle risk being removed from the group or having to stay silent while often harmful ideas are espoused. Because at least our group isn’t that other one.
This last point is the danger, because, suppose it is true that the group we are discussing is truly better than their opponents. That doesn’t then give them immunity from making incorrect choices and espousing dangerous and harmful ideas and tactics. Those arguing for and enacting those can just say, “At least we aren’t those guys. They are evil!!” And then commit atrocities in the name of goodness. Because, “Hey, at least we aren’t those people.”
Classifying you as a leftist doesn’t mean that you have to agree with other leftists
so… like every other leftist out there?
Lmao yup
I think you may want to look into syndicalism actually.
Pretty leftist my dude. Embrace it
Almost left wing, could be completely left wing depending on how strong you want unions to be, ie do you still want Capitalism or are you full-on syndicalist.
Is it even possible to describe the left end the right and not make it sound like the right are the bad guys?
Not if you’re trying to be honest
It is better to conceptualize political allegiance by which ideology they support: socialism, social capitalism, liberal capitalism, or fascist capitalism.
Those who wank off with left hand are left wingers and those that wank off with right hand are right winger. And none of them are gonna care about your privacy or freedom.
that helps, i guess im in the center then, since i care about the privacy and freedom
Left wing and right wing are like political vibes. They only make sense when you have more understanding of what the issues are. What they mean can change over time.
I think it’s easier to understand what the individual issues are and why people want them or don’t want them. Then you need to figure out what your ideology is and pick what things you want to support to further your political goals.
