https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
I’ve had mine (first generation 13" model) for over a year now. I’m very happy with it, and I intend to make it last me through university (3 years) and then some. I would consider it a good investment for me.
I’m interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
This question comes up for me quite a bit. It’s great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there’s no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
Hi. Let’s set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
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Your budget was initially $500.
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The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don’t purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I’m looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
- For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
- For hackability.
- For a laptop I won’t void the warranty for fixing.
- For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
- For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won’t disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts… we’ll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple’s software locks.)
- For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
- For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
- For sustainably sourced parts.
- To support a company that won’t put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half… maybe I’ll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would’ve sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I’ll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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apple software locks?
Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don’t work if the repair is not done by Apple.
oh god thats fucking evil, i thought uou meant some proproetary screw or some shit
They’ve done that one too. The software locks are just the most recent iteration.
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To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I’m fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
As I wrote, one month is fine. If it’s one or two weeks more, it’s ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I’m in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.
The waiting time heavily depends on whether you want Intel or Ryzen, and whether you want 13 or 16 inch.
13 inch Intel should ship pretty much instant even now as far as I know, the just released Ryzen now has to catch up with pre-orders first, and 16" isn’t yet released AFAIK.
I bought a refurbished 11th gen Intel back in March and that got here in just a few days and I can’t say anything about it didn’t feel brand new. Have been using it almost daily since.
Hi. If you want to look for a new laptop, you can also try out Tuxedo laptops: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/Alle.tuxedo
Their laptops are a bit cheaper and also repairable, starting from 850 EUR (8GB RAM, no Win license, etc.) They assemble laptops, you specify components to your needs.
I’m a happy owner of Tuxedo InfinityBook 15. The most important is that they use normal generic power supply (not some proprietary one that is hard to replace) with an ability to charge from 65+W USB-C connector. Battery preservation bypass mode is also possible in BIOS settings. Their keyboards are also high-quality, replaceable and can have a custom layout. The screen is also high-quality. Initial setup is easy af. They maintain their own distro, which is quite good on its own, but the hardware is also Win-compatible. They also provide 5% discount for students.
(note: not sponsored)
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
