CrowdStrike’s Falcon software uses a special driver that allows it to run at a lower level than most apps so it can detect threats across a Windows system. Microsoft tried to restrict third parties from accessing the kernel in Windows Vista in 2006 but was met with pushback from cybersecurity vendors and EU regulators. However, Apple was able to lock down its macOS operating system in 2020 so that developers could no longer get access to the kernel.
Now, it looks like Microsoft wants to reopen the conversations around restricting kernel-level access inside Windows.
Justice!
Damn… They can be taught?!
yeah when they lose money
every corporation can learn if they lose enough money
deleted by creator
maybe if we had a system where they lost similar amounts of money when they do bad things. imagine the world!
im salivating for that world
Why not have a structure in place that has Microsoft review/test code from third parties. At the end of the day it is Microsoft that took the public hit so they should be the last line of defence in this process.
Those that wish to have their code sit at the privileged/kernel level should either pay up or supply Microsoft with resources to do the tests Microsoft would require.
What shouldn’t happen is third parties doing their work at a privileged level without the oversight.
If I understand it correctly, it already has been (at least formally) reviewed by microsoft before signing and allowing that signed code run kernel-mode. But the crowdstrike’s driver module was not just running malware scanner on itself, it was interpreting what is basically unsigned code that was easier and faster to update. This unsigned files were the ones containing faulty update.
At least that what I understand from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAzEJxOo1ts , it may not be entirely correct or I may have misunderstood.
But if it is true, it may be more sensible to make an API so software with specific permissions could access information needed to effectively function as antivirus, without being run in kernel mode.
But if it is true, it may be more sensible to make an API so software with specific permissions could access information needed to effectively function as antivirus, without being run in kernel mode.
I’ve come to this conclusion as well. I believe Apple has similar functionality with their “kernel-extensions”, I believe it’s called.
yes please. NOTHING should have ring 0 access to your computer.
bonus: no kernel level anticheat to fuck with linux users
Imo, third party companies just shouldn’t have access to the kernel level. Someone is always getting hacked, and having this level of access to potentially hundreds of millions of computers is a huge risk. Especially if it’s for something trivial, like anticheat in Helldivers 2.
and let someone into the kernel,
Problem is, that similarly to invasion of privacy, this is not visible, and so they don’t understand what’s happening. It’s just one more program, what could happen? It’s not like somebody coming and inspecting your house, in that it is not noticeable in practice.
@ReversalHatchery , I completely agree. My ring 0 is sacred and I can’t prove there isn’t anything in it already, but I wouldn’t knowingly shove third party stuff into my kernel. I like to keep my apps restricted from anything they don’t need on my system in userland. However, millions upon millions of people installed Tencent’s Vanguard to play League of Legends like it wasn’t any big deal (it is). If people want an inner ring security module, I suppose that’s a bit their choice. 🤷🏽♂️
Yeah, those security agents can become attack vectors themselves, so running them kernel level is nuts.
@mudle somehow, I don’t think that’s the way to resolve future problems, it just looks like Apple’s way, which sometimes isn’t great for customers
You have a point, but if Microsoft completely locks down the kernel, preventing any third party software/driver from running at the kernel-level, Anti-Cheat developers will have to find a new way to implement Anti-Cheat. This may open up the possibility of some newer form of Anti-Cheat being user-space; or at the very least NOT ring 0, which in-turn may open up the possibility of this new form of Anti-Cheat working underneath Linux.
Or maybe we’re all still screwed because this new form of Anti-Cheat will perform on a basis that trusts that there is no third party access to the Windows kernel because of how restricted it is, therefore nullifying the need to be ring 0, but it still might not work under Linux due to the freedom/access users have to the kernel.
But then again, in order to implement any third party driver into the Windows kernel, it has to be signed and/or approved by Microsoft first (IIRC). But cheaters get around this through various means. So maybe nothing changes; but if Microsoft DOES restrict kerne-level access, this leads me to think that Anti-Cheat will have to change in some form or another, which may lead to it working on Linux.
TBH, The only way(s) I see Anti-Cheat moving forward at all, is:
- Hardware level Anti-Cheat (similar to a DMA card. Maybe it requires a certain type firmware that is universally used across all/most major video game companies)
- Some form of emulated environment. Maybe like a specific kernel that is used for each game.
@mudle btw afaik Valve’s working on AI anticheat, which analyzes player’s behaviour, I think nowadays that would be the most viable direction for non-kernel anticheats
I completely forgot about AI Anti-Cheat, lol. But yes, this is another form of Ant-Cheat that seems to be very effective. (Although I don’t much like the idea)
@mudle well, AIs are usually controversial because they are trained on scraped data, but I don’t think that this may be an option for video games
Facts. But, at the same time… 3rd party vendors who have that access should be held liable in court and have their pocketbooks pounded like a $5k sex worker.
At least if it’s a commercial service, or SaaS, which should hold a ton more livability behind it.
Funny how you can create a microkernel only to then fuck up privileges so bad that software (e.g. graphics drivers, anything running with real-time prio) can easily crash your system without recovery.
The architecture of Windows is both, remarkably good and weirdly underutilized.
Can someone more knowledgeable explain to me this? Why do certain security software require access to the kernel? To keep malware from getting to the kernel or something? Doesn’t restricting access to the kernel offer more security? Wouldn’t malware also be unable to access the kernel? Or is that not the case? (Kernel is what connects software and hardware, correct? Just to be sure)
I have no problem with this.
Norton AV causes SO many issues with the software our clients use for home automation… And not even issues which make sense. And so many AV apps cause nothing but problems
If they need low level access, they can request a userspace API from Microsoft and wait for it.
My understanding is that EU regulators had an issue because Windows Defender rolled out kernel mode/kernel data protection, which gave Microsoft a de-facto monopoly in that market segment if no one else was allowed to use the same technology in their products.
Microsoft complaining that the Crowdstrike incident was the EU’s fault is an argument in favor of a Microsoft monopoly, which the EU has been pretty consistently against, and EU opposition to this should not have been a surprise to Microsoft.
microsoft could get away with this monopoly accusations by opening up official read-only APIs for that, so you can have antiviruses use it and have a proper procedure for user to give consent for the antivirus to have access to said API.
I agree, all they need to make sure is for their own tool to have the same access as everyone else.
I think that the way we’re splitting up software monopolies is pretty damn ridiculous in this field. I’m Linux gang all the way, but let Microsoft own the OS how they see fit, and especially the kernel, and instead go after the third party hardware vendors being locked into MS contracts. Just make it not legal for third party hardware vendors to sell computers with pre-installed operating systems, and it solves a lot of the monopoly issues. So no more Dell, HP, etc, with forced windows, make the consumer buy the OS separately.
Could also go after bundling, like OS can’t be sold with office suite software.
Just make it not legal for third party hardware vendors to sell computers with pre-installed operating systems
As the “local IT guy”, please no. Please. I have better things to do than to babysit a windows installation every single time someone buys a new computer.
Plus, having to buy a windows licence on top of already expensive laptops will just drive us faster into the tablet driven hellscape I fear is coming.
A legal precedent should be established to hold companies as large as CrowdStrike liable for their actions. This liability should be significant enough to ensure that future companies will think twice before releasing faulty code. We should not be asking for or supporting Microsoft’s efforts to further lock down their product.
Microsoft is the Windows ME of corporations
At least windows ME was green.
I remember the screen always being blue on ME.
They’re going to implement something like eBPF for the Windows kernel. This will allow kernel-level modules to run with zero risk of crashing the kernel. If the module fails, it fails without taking down the kernel with it.
Linux already has this. It works great. If Windows gets this, all antivirus and anti-cheat software is going to have to transition.
Once that happens, it will be way easier to add anti-cheat software to Linux that operates the same as on Windows. It may be possible to load and unload it only when playing and actually having competition-grade gaming on Linux.
Of course, this is a security disaster that I wouldn’t allow on any of my daily drivers, but I would enjoy playing Destiny on my Steamdeck if there’s a legit way for me to do it.
According to wikipedia, both Windows and linux have it, and both are open source.
Believe it or not, a lot of companies, no matter how cool and secure their marketing sounds, are just seriously incompetent.
But will the EU allow it?
Sure, as long as Microsoft doesn’t give its own products more access to the kernel than competitors.
